I am sorry if you find my questions as pointless. But obviously many of you have given a lot of thought to this issue. I am honestly trying to understand better.
Richard Oliver
JoinedPosts by Richard Oliver
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Data-Dog. You mentioned that it doesn't matter what the law is that it must be reported. But my question was if it is not against the law who are you going to report it too? If it is against the law do you want the police to arrest the person and then do what? Again I don't mean to start a fight with anyone. I am honestly asking what should be done.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
I am not saying that a low age of consent is good. Of course it is not. But if it is not against the law what do you expect law enforcement to do. According to the Mirror as of 2013, the following countries had an age of consent of 14: Austria, Germany, Portogul and Italy. at 15 the countries include: France, Denmark, Check Republic and Greece. Spain was at 13 but recently raised it to 16. And Angola has a stagering low age of 12. While Japan is at 13 and China is at 14.
And there are plenty of countries that don't have robust law enforcement or judicial actions.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
I have a follow question for everyone, because, it seems like everyone wants Watchtower to report immediately if a child is abuse. This is certainly a fair argument and is reasonable. Though, my question is, what do you want Watchtower to do in countries that either have a low age of consent or have a very lax or non-existent law enforcement and judicial branch. There are countries out there that do have a low age of consent and even some states in the US that do. Watchtower makes policies for a worldwide organization.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Landy- I am trying to find the correct case but there was a case where a man sued Watchtower because he was abused by a man who was a witness in his hall when the plaintiff was a child. The material facts of the case included that the plaintiff's step-father was an elder in the congregation and had knowledge of the perpetrator's previous allegations. But in the capacity of the child's step-father, he allowed the child to associate with the perpetrator. In your opinion who is responsible for the abuse that was put upon this child?
I am not trying to start an argument with anyone. I have legitimate questions.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
Iwasblind- My point was not for cases where a previous allegations was made. My point was, how can you expect Watchtower to be responsible for the actions of a member when they have never heard of an allegation before. Can any association be responsible for the actions of another person if they have never been warned about it?
Also too many people here don't realize that the ARC doesn't have any actual power to make changes. They can submit their findings to the law enforcement, and legislatures around the country but they don't have the power to make any changes themselves.
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207
Honest Questions About Child Abuse
by Richard Oliver ini have two honest questions for everyone here.
i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.
but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.
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Richard Oliver
I have two honest questions for everyone here.
I understand that most here want retribution from the courts against Watchtower for child abuse allegations.
But let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an MS. Let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person. Why do you feel that Watchtower is responsible for that person's actions against the child?
Many here are looking for and trying to only sue Watchtower over child abuse. But doesn't that require a child to be abused and to be hurt along with years of litigation and then mental health support. Why is it that more and more people here aren't encouraging each other to try and work with your state or national legislatures to get laws changed for everyone to to be mandatory reports of child abuse? This would be something that actually helps future victims.
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14
Vow of Obedience and Poverty? WTF??
by NikL inlistener on here started a cool thread about the april 2017 wt which can be found here.... https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4881380162928640/watchtower-april-2017-overview.
it got me to look at it closer and in the opening study they use terminology i've never heard used before namely, "vow of obedience and poverty".... 19 currently, there are some 67,000 members of the worldwide order of special full-time servants of jehovah’s witnesses.
some perform bethel service, others engage in construction or in circuit work, serve as field instructors or special pioneers or missionaries or as assembly hall or bible school facility servants.
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Richard Oliver
Those in special full-time service (receives money from the branch) has to sign a vow of obedience and poverty for at least 30 or 40 years. They sign it in order to ensure that the person who is a member of the worldwide order of special full-time service knows that their status as a member can be removed at anytime or can be reassigned to a different location or job as needs are needed to be filled.
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14
Question on the Special Order... document and its implications
by careful inseveral times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.
the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.
basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.
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Richard Oliver
I can only speak intelligently about the US and those that take the vow in the US. The part of obedience would apply throughout the world. The vow of poverty and tax implications would be adjusted based on laws and regulations in each sovereign country. But since the US has the most bethelites, and traveling overseers and their wives, that is the biggest group that is part of the order.
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14
Question on the Special Order... document and its implications
by careful inseveral times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.
the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.
basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.
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Richard Oliver
Consulting services is a division within Legal that prepares the tax returns for members of the order. It is a unique thing to have a vow of poverty so not everyone knows how to handle their tax returns. Their only job is either to prepare tax returns or to approve tax returns that a member has had an accountant prepare for them. It is ultimately up to each member to file an accurate and proper tax return but they will make sure that it is compliant with IRS and all state laws and regulations.
Bethel office only really gets involved if someone doesn't either file their paperwork with consulting services in a timely fashion or does not notify with consulting services that they filed their tax return. And they only get involved because they want to ensure that everyone in order is compliant with federal and state laws and regulations.